Player proposes broker-run organization

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One leading player is not satisfied with existing mortgage professional associations and proposes one run by brokers for brokers.

“There are a lot of issues around running our broker channel that need representation on a national level,” Blair Anderson of MortgageResource.ca told MortgageBrokerNews.ca. “I would like to propose the Canadian Mortgage Brokers Association (CMBA), and there needs to be equal representation between regions, and small and large brokerages.”

Anderson, who has over 20 years of service as a broker under his belt, believes the unification of brokers under one organization is the best way to tackle the issues that plague the industry. It can also help better educate the public about what the mortgage broker industry has to offer.

“Once we have established a unified front, only then we can tackle the problems like REDX, imposed minimum volume requirements, an advertising fund, exclusivity contracts, etc.,” he said. “(The industry) hasn’t grown in 20 years the way I want it to because we can’t do any advertising -- we could allot a small percentage of deals to an advertising fund that can be used to promote the channel.”

And the template of how such an organization would operate already exists.

“Perhaps we don’t need to look any further than the model used by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce; they represent a network of over 420 chambers of commerce and boards of trade, representing 192,000 businesses of all sizes in all sectors of the economy and in all regions,” he said. “No one will fight harder for brokers than brokers. We just need to get organized.”

Though he knows organizing such a large scale operation would be no small task, perhaps broaching the subject is the first step to mounting action.

“I’m equally guilty of talking about it and not doing much more but if we’re serious about it – and there are a lot of people out there who would be interested – it’s just a matter of getting organized,” Anderson said. “(There are) too many interest groups. Like our provincial associations, we need one at the national level, with exclusive representation for the broker channel.”

  • Len Lane on 2013-10-24 8:48:01 AM

    Perhaps the Chamber of commerce model or possibly more like the Canadian Home Builders Model. Both are quite similar.

  • JERRY ROSE on 2013-10-24 9:27:40 AM

    I SUPPORT THE CONCEPT.IT SHOULD BE RELATIVELY EASY TO GET PARTICIPATION THROUGH OUR RESPECTIVE BROKER ASSOCIATIONS I.E. VERICO & DOMINION LENDING A UNIFIED VOICE BY THE BROKERAGE INDUSTRY TO DEAL WITH VARIOUS GOVERNMENT LEVELS ON LEGISLATION WOULD BE OF GREAT BENEFIT TO ALL BROKERS AND MORTGAGE AGENTS.

  • JERRY ROSE on 2013-10-24 9:27:48 AM

    I SUPPORT THE CONCEPT.IT SHOULD BE RELATIVELY EASY TO GET PARTICIPATION THROUGH OUR RESPECTIVE BROKER ASSOCIATIONS I.E. VERICO & DOMINION LENDING A UNIFIED VOICE BY THE BROKERAGE INDUSTRY TO DEAL WITH VARIOUS GOVERNMENT LEVELS ON LEGISLATION WOULD BE OF GREAT BENEFIT TO ALL BROKERS AND MORTGAGE AGENTS.

  • Jeff on 2013-10-24 10:23:20 AM

    The reason I quit CAAMP was because its not a broker organization. Any organization that allows bank mortgage reps to be members is not representing my best interests.

  • M. Robertson on 2013-10-24 10:24:05 AM

    As opposed to the Chamber of Commerce, perhaps the Accounting industry would be a better model as it is more aligned with how the broker industry works. Recently CGA and CMA merged to create CPA and they represent ALL accountants across the country equally. They work closely with both big and small accounting firms, but in the end their job is to represent accountants and manage education and standards. Pretty much exactly what is being suggested here.

    I do believe that you need to get support from someone who sits at the head of a brand who is experienced in most aspects of our industry. Someone who has actually done the job and been a broker, a lender, etc. Someone who understands what educational requirements are necessary, and also has the ability to look at the big picture. There are a lot of amazing veterans in our industry, people who have worked in the industry for years. The fact is however that those “old dogs” are also the group that supports and set up CIMBL/CAAMP. There are also very few who have done it all and then transition to lead a brand, most have either only been a broker or only a lender. This person should not necessarily lead, but certainly someone who should be brought into the fold for the discussion.

    I can think of one brand leader who I am a fan of (so yes I am biased) who has been a lender, mortgage broker, worked in land titles, been a management consultant, has developed tons of training and spearheaded technology development, has good political connections, and is well spoken, etc. He is very well respected, and in my opinion (for what it is worth) would be ideal. He was named as one of the most influential people in our industry for this year as well.

    Not sure if he would be interested, it might be a political minefield that is difficult to navigate… but if I am right he would be great.

    Don’t forget that CAAMP will move heaven and earth to do what they can to block any attempt by brokers to form a new national association.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-24 10:52:47 AM

    Who is going to raise the money to make it happen?

    I agree with the concept, I agree with the need, I agree with the importance of "Broker Only" I agree the Accountancy model is good, heck even the C of C model is not bad but who will make it happen and who will pay?

    We have an existing national association that has massive income from several sources and a balance sheet with over $4 Million of cash.

    Sometimes an idea is just that: an idea.

    The logistics and expense of developing a competing independent association exclusively made up of brokers with no official lender, tech or "other" membership and also unlock the E & O insurance relationships that exist with some networks: wow, its a massive undertaking. Actually starting from scratch would be much easier, this project requires massive "take-away" from an entrenched institution.

    I support the idea but this is a project that I cannot see getting off the ground. There are just too many money and logistical based issues in the way.

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-24 1:05:13 PM

    Everyone has to hang their hat somewhere. Correct me if I’m wrong but the vast majority of CAAMP members are mortgage brokers. One reason might be that there is no clear alternative. That’s where CMBA comes in. Let’s give mortgage brokers/agents a better choice and see what happens. Yes, there will be costs, and that is where experienced personnel will help pave the way. Membership and membership fees will certainly contribute.

    The provincial associations also have to be on side. They have the experience and represent the same members. Dave O’Gorman made a good suggestion in another CMP forum, on the same topic:

    “Have the provincial/regional organizations have a meeting, specifically excluding CAAMP, and agree on a process of formation of national organization, where representation is from the provinces up, as opposed to CAAMP's dictate down organizational design. i.e. a Member of MBABC, AMBA IMBA etc would vote for an individual to be a director of the national organization. This would truly be representative of the industry. Some things need to be done on a National level, others could be done to reach economies of scale. As much as CAAMP & the banks want to make this a NATIONAL business, 90% of the laws that we deal & must comply with on a daily basis are provincial. In my personal opinion a strong provincial or regional association should be a priority, working towards a National organization”.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-24 1:35:09 PM

    I support O'Gorman as well, his suggestion is almost identical to the way the Life Insurance Agents run their Associations.

    My point is strictly focused on the difficulty in supplanting a highly entrenched existing program.

    Someone will need a ton of money to run a big monthly burn rate on this one.

  • Walid on 2013-10-24 2:12:10 PM

    Ok, Sign me up let's get rid of CRAAP and let's bring in CMBA. Time for change. One of the things we should be doing also is create or buy a Lender that does also B-deals.

    Does it really make sense that Caamp is funded by banks ?

    Are some Ideas to improve our visibility and increase consumer awareness not being brought to light not to upset Banks?

    To anyone who reads this please not there might be a lot of CAAMP folks or CAAMP hired guns can post negative comments here (just ignore them).

    Just think outside the box.

    We mortgage brokers chose to be free, let's stay consistant and be really free from being manipulated indirectly.

    If you want to reach me here is my email: walid@hypotheca.ca

  • BC Broker on 2013-10-24 2:18:35 PM

    There does not need to be huge cost to establish a broker only association. The cost to implement and set up the registration of the association as a nonprofit federally is nominal ($300). The biggest challenge is setting up the bylaws and then marketing or driving membership, which based on the comments lately should not be too hard.

    As for E&O, tech, etc... that is not a huge cost outlay either. My own E&O costs are a good 25% lower than if I purchased through CAAMP and that is without adding in the membership fees to CAAMP - so the price they offer is NOT the best in the industry, not even close.

    CAAMP derives its income from memberships primarily – the same as any other association. Like any other association it takes time to build that membership. Keep the fees reasonable and provide value and you attract members. Technology – why would a membership association get involved in technology, or even E&O for that matter? There are ample sources for insurance, technology, and training available in our industry. The brands all provide this to their networks at little or no cost, and for independents there are places like REMIC, and hundreds of tech providers – most independents use them today. Why would an association like CAAMP enter into these areas? Because they are struggling to show value for belonging. As a member I still have to dig deep into my pockets to attend any educational events, etc. A broker only association should be focused on promoting the industry to the consumer and advocacy.

  • BC Broker on 2013-10-24 2:18:44 PM

    There does not need to be huge cost to establish a broker only association. The cost to implement and set up the registration of the association as a nonprofit federally is nominal ($300). The biggest challenge is setting up the bylaws and then marketing or driving membership, which based on the comments lately should not be too hard.

    As for E&O, tech, etc... that is not a huge cost outlay either. My own E&O costs are a good 25% lower than if I purchased through CAAMP and that is without adding in the membership fees to CAAMP - so the price they offer is NOT the best in the industry, not even close.

    CAAMP derives its income from memberships primarily – the same as any other association. Like any other association it takes time to build that membership. Keep the fees reasonable and provide value and you attract members. Technology – why would a membership association get involved in technology, or even E&O for that matter? There are ample sources for insurance, technology, and training available in our industry. The brands all provide this to their networks at little or no cost, and for independents there are places like REMIC, and hundreds of tech providers – most independents use them today. Why would an association like CAAMP enter into these areas? Because they are struggling to show value for belonging. As a member I still have to dig deep into my pockets to attend any educational events, etc. A broker only association should be focused on promoting the industry to the consumer and advocacy.

  • Jeff on 2013-10-24 2:30:24 PM

    I agree with BC Broker...what does CAAMP provide to their members? "Advocacy"? As they represent bank agents also...what exactly are they advocating? That you should get a mortgage if you need to borrow money?

    They haven't been able to influence government mortgage lending policies. What have they advocated for in the last 5 years?

    Fees should not be a problem. I think most mortgage brokers would leave CAAMP and put fees into a mortgage broker national organization if given the choice.

    I am not saying it would be logistically easy to do, but I support my provincial organization and would support a national organization that has teeth.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-24 2:33:53 PM

    I think the burn rate to get to 5000 members would be $10K to 15K a month for a year even for a moderate effort

    You may also never get there. Some networks and Superbrokers insist on CAAMP as their E & O provider and getting those folks to change may be insurmountable.

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-24 2:35:59 PM

    Well said BC Broker. Lets follow David's suggestion and work on getting our provincial associations together (without CAAMP) to discuss this more. I have already written to mine (IMBA). Everyone needs to do this if they are going to act. Find your assoications' president and email him today.

  • C. Zittlaw on 2013-10-24 2:37:44 PM

    We all know that CAAMP does not provide value to its membership, though they certainly do protest loudly when that is suggested to them. Folks like Mr. Murphy are too busy trying to save their jobs.

    Bring CMBA on and let's make this more than just talk. Let's make it a reality.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-24 2:41:32 PM

    So I guess the consensus is the Provincial Associations will do all the heavy lifting and all we have to do is lobby them. I am sure these Provincial folks have nothing else on their plates and they all agree with the idea. Let me know how that works out.

  • M. Robertson on 2013-10-24 2:43:05 PM

    @Ron Butler

    It should not cost 10 to 15k a month, not event close to that. Getting people to sign up is not hard... it is called email and online marketing through social media... which is as close to free as you will get.

    If someone is committed to it, they will donate their time initially.

    Also, the networks and superbrokers that insist on CAAMP. Like anyone... they are subject to the demands of their network. Enough of them complain and you bet they will pay attention.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-24 2:51:26 PM

    @ M. Robertson, lets give it a few months and we will meet back here and find out who was closer to being right. It never ceases to amaze me when people suggest that a very daunting task will be taken up by highly competent, busy people who will also do it for free. I am also sure that the brokerages and agents who have signed long term ironclad contracts consistently get there Super Brokers to change their minds at the drop of hat. Yeah, I have seen that happen a lot.

  • Nicholas Hamblin on 2013-10-24 3:05:42 PM

    I have been advocating for this for a few years in my neck of the woods, Atlantic Canada. I think it is the only way to guarantee the promotion of the channel and the protection of the industry !

  • Nicholas Hamblin on 2013-10-24 3:05:44 PM

    I have been advocating for this for a few years in my neck of the woods, Atlantic Canada. I think it is the only way to guarantee the promotion of the channel and the protection of the industry !

  • David Neville on 2013-10-25 4:23:39 AM

    As a BDM in the industry for 25+ years, I would love to see this go national. The ground work is already happening, as Nick Hamblin said, in Atlantic Canada with MBAAC (Mortgage Brokers Association of Atlantic Canada), in Ontario with IMBA, and in Alberta with AMBA. But one national voice with regional interests at heart is the next step. Don't let this die as an idea...keep this momentum going.

  • David Neville on 2013-10-25 4:23:41 AM

    As a BDM in the industry for 25+ years, I would love to see this go national. The ground work is already happening, as Nick Hamblin said, in Atlantic Canada with MBAAC (Mortgage Brokers Association of Atlantic Canada), in Ontario with IMBA, and in Alberta with AMBA. But one national voice with regional interests at heart is the next step. Don't let this die as an idea...keep this momentum going.

  • John Dearin on 2013-10-25 4:52:59 AM

    The day I see the Atlantic Association publicly back a National Association of Brokers, in association with the other regional Associations, I will sign up my Brokerage and my agents and would be wiling to commit my CAMP fees, and AMP fees if an education program, a real education program is brought in. The Association and education program should be modeled on an organization like the CGA's. I think the various monoline lenders should be brought in as full time partners as that is what they are...partners. Keep the banks out.

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-25 4:53:09 AM

    Thanks David. I appreciate your support from the lender's side.

    Again, if you are a member, or not a member of any provincial association, send the president an email asking him/her to meet with his/her counterparts to discuss the creation of CMBA. We need to fill their inbox.

  • Brian Matthey on 2013-10-25 6:50:45 AM

    I am reading with interest this apparent ground swell for a broker only organization.
    I am one of the "old dogs' in the industry and also a founder of CAAMP some 20 years ago.

    Twenty years ago a group of 25 lenders and brokers met ,over several months,on their own time and with their own nickel(travel and accommodation) to discuss the future of the mortgage brokerage industry.The meeting costs,facilities etc were paid for by donation from the lenders involved.The industry,at that time, was fractured across Canada and had a reputation of the lenders of last resort,known for high fees and less than stellar reputations.The Canadian Institute of Mortgage brokers and Lenders was borne, which evolved into CAAMP.

    Of course, there was a vested interest by lenders and insurers to see that the brokerage channel became more mainstream, as it meant more business.There was also a vested interest in ensuring the reputation of the mortgage brokerage industry be improved.

    I wonder ,of the people complaining about CAAMP,how many have put up their hand to be part of the solution.How many have served on committees or acted as a director?It is very easy to criticize from the outside.

    Is CAAMP perfect.No.Are there issues, yes, but nobody should be so naive to suggest creating an alternative, unless they are prepared to step up to the table to effect change.To suggest that provincial assocaitions should spearhead a move is passing the buck on to volunteers working in those organizations.

    CAAMP has managed to do a lot in 20 short years and that has been the work of a huge number of volunteers lenders,brokers and insurers working to improve our industry.How can you so easily discount all that effort by them and those currently involved?

    Is anyone way that the past Chair,Darryl Harris was a mortgage broker?Darryl thought enough of this industry to sacrifice his time to be part of the solution.Is anyone aware that he was sitting in meetings in Ottawa trying to defend our industry.Is anyone aware that the government offcials who participated in those meetings said that the research information that CAAMP provided to them was by far the most detailed information that they received from anyone in making their policy decisions?Is anyone ware that Paul Kozan,the incoming chair,is a mortgage broker,who is also prepared to sacrifice his time for the betterment of our industry??Has everybody participated in the last survey on the AMP designation and the changes that are going to take place?

    To suggest that a new organization run by mortgage brokers can accomplish more than CAAMP has is very naive.If you want to effect change be part of the solution and step up to the table.It is a lot harder to do than criticizing from the wings!



  • Ryan Kirwan, HQ Mortgages Inc. on 2013-10-25 7:28:24 AM

    @ Brian - well, I guess that will end this debate! LOL!

    Good point, most of this lobbying goes on behind closed doors. I think that is the hardest thing to monetize when it comes to "what are our CAAMP fees doing for us?"

    Those that want to see a change, CAAMP is a great base to start with; why start from scratch? Join the organization as a volunteer and let your voice be heard.

    For the record, no, I'm not a CAAMP director! :)

  • David O'Gorman on 2013-10-25 7:34:52 AM

    The grapevine says that CAAMP will introduce a
    "broker only" designation at next month's meeting in Vancouver. They obviously are feeling the ongoing dissatisfaction of the average broker. That does not change the very expensive, top down organizational flow.

    That Vancouver meeting would also be a very appropriate time and place for the representatives of the provincial & regional organizations, all of whom usually attend, to have private discussions(no CAAMP participation) to get this new organization up & running.

    That would necessitate those provincial/regional associations sending people to Vancouver whom have an open mind about the potential for a new National organization, not "CAAMP toadies", who will try to sabotage discussions. If there is no provincial/regional association buy-in to a new national organization, it won't happen.

    I don't disagree with Mr.Butler in his comment that the provincial/regional associations will have to do some "lifting" initially. However I don't see it as "heavy lifting". They have Membership lists, they can easily communicate with their Members & poll to see if their Members would be willing to pay, say an extra $50/year to support a licensed agents/brokers only national organization. Some provincial associations have paid staff that can make the time to do the required work.

    As far as "partners", I have concerns. If you start taking money from outside entities, they implicitly want a say in the organization or they withdraw their support. My grandpa had a saying"Take the devil's penny & you have to dance to the devil's tune". We don't need to build an expensive, bloated & ineffective national bureaucracy. There is already an organization providing that service.


    We do need a national council, with representatives of the provincial/regional organizations that speaks ONLY for licensed mortgage agents & brokers, that can communicate on a level that will address national concerns where & when necessary, & share/develop programs where economies of scale can save money for everyone. Leave the provincial/regional associations to deal with business & more local regulations/politics/issues.

    Every profession has a national organization, made up solely of their own licensed/certified members that flows from the provinces up to the national level. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, appraisers, insurance brokers...everyone, but us.

  • Brian Matthey on 2013-10-25 8:09:59 AM

    I must admit I had to consult Google for a definition of "Toadies"
    Here it is:fawn on, flatter, grovel, creep, crawl, cringe, pander to, suck up to (informal), curry favour with, butter up, kiss someone's ass (U.S. & Canad. taboo slang), brown-nose (taboo slang), kowtow to, bow and scrape, lick someone's boots, kiss the feet of, lick someone's arse (taboo slang), be obsequious to They came backstage, cooing and toadying to him."

    For a list of current "CAAMP Toadies" from across Canada go to:http://www.caamp.org/board-of-directors.php?pid=110

    These are the people you must be referring to when you state:"We don't need to build an expensive, bloated & ineffective national bureaucracy. There is already an organization providing that service"

    Mr.Gorman, who do you think the "They" are?"They obviously are feeling the ongoing dissatisfaction of the average broker. That does not change the very expensive, top down organizational flow"

    Have you requested a copy of their financial statements to see where the money goes?Talked to the treasurer? You just might find how much they are paying all the volunteers for their time.

    By the way,you don't need a "grapevine" to find out what CAAMP is up to.A telephone call to a "Toadie"works better to find out what is really going on.

    I don't consider myself a "Toadie".I am not a director.I am a member of CAAMP.
    I do consider myself appreciative of the efforts of all of those who have dedicated their time and those who are currently doing so to effect positive change in our industry.

    Found a good quote"“Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for.”
    ― Epicurus

    Got a nice ring to it!

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-25 8:18:35 AM

    In any endeavour there will always be issues surrounding funding, logistics and the will to proceed.

    Mr. Matthey made many fair points as did Mr. O'Gorman.

    It is absolutely true that a tremendous effort occurred to get CIMBL / CAAMP off the ground. It is also just as true that the insurance brokers don't have an association made up partially of the insurance companies that actively compete with them.

    I want to make one factual point. IMBA has existed in Ontario for over a decade now; it's current membership is about 1500 and CAAMP's Ontario membership is about 5000.

    If anyone thinks getting all the provincial associations to agree and then transitioning smoothly to independent national association with an 8000 or 10,000 membership base will be easy outgrowth of social media and the free work of staff at the provincial levels has an incorrect concept of the magnitude of the task.

  • Walid on 2013-10-25 8:38:20 AM

    As expected so many loud hired guns and sold out brokers to CAAMP misleading brokers and agents.

    CAAMP can't take us to the next level. We need to move ahead.

    I am from Quebec and I believe we should part away with Caamp, they have 0 added value for brokers, they don't have the client's interest in mind they don't want to teach them to have a choice. Having banks in Caamp is like giving membership and power to separatists in a federalist party. They will pull the necessary strings to stop real things from happening.

    Banks pay memberships fees and sponsor the events. Their money contribution is not negligeable so CAAMP can't go against them and incourage people to deal with brokers to have more choice.

    Let's get going when do we start ? Again here is my email walid@hypotheca.ca and my cell is 514-266-7375

  • John Dearin on 2013-10-25 9:45:40 AM

    See Walid, this is the problem with some of the people here. You don't like or agree with somone elses position, crap on them, make derogitory comments about them. This is not the attitude we need here, we need constructive comments. if you can't make a point without crapping on the other persons character, then shut up.

  • Walid on 2013-10-25 10:59:48 AM

    @ John Dearing. With all due respect I see no need for you to support caamp. What does that benefit you? The guys who created a mobile workforce to compete against us (read banks) are members of caamp. If you fail to see the conflict of interest here and the ridiculousness of the situation then I will feel sorry for both of us (because we are not united to save ourseleves and our industry).

    It is an insult to our intelligence if we are still part of this.

    Please take a moment to think about how our industry can grow without being tethered by Caamp.

  • John Dearin on 2013-10-25 12:10:22 PM

    Hi Walid,

    i think you bring some interesting ideas to the table. Just wish it could be done without insulting and name calling others with oposing points.

    i am far from being a fan of CAAMP. I have our AMP renewals on my desk and we are having difficulty sending a cheque. The renewal letter talks about 90% of our dues going directly into promoting AMP...I have not seen it. Substantial AMP discounts at ...regional events...didn't go this year as the 2011 Atlantic convention was a farce but I saw no discounts or special offers. Other than the great times after hours that were offered by the lenders it would have been a complete bust.

    I agree it is going to be a daunting task to get a brokerage association that will represent all brokerages/brokers/agents up and running. Volunteers will desparately be needed and I will offer myself for that. jdearin@dominionlending.ca

    But it seems to me that the best starting point in this endevour is to get the regional associations together and move forward. As I said, i have no problem putting my CAAMP membership fees where my mouth is.

  • David O'Gorman on 2013-10-25 12:17:50 PM

    Mr.Matthey,

    a) My name is O'Gorman, not Gorman.Those
    who chose to drop the O' were the fearful
    ones, when it was lawful to put up a "for rent"
    sign that said "no dogs or Irish need apply".

    b) When I want to check the "real" meaning of a
    word I check the Concise Oxford Dictionary,
    not Google. Toady: fawning slavishly.

    c) For the first 8 years of IMBA's existence, I was a director & some years a member of the executive. We held our meetings in library meeting rooms & service centres on the side of highways, wherever we could get a free or inexpensive meeting place. We had to run
    around our first AGM covering up the name of a lender on our signage, authorized by a VP of
    the lender, because the President of the lending organization(& a founder of CAAMP) went
    apoplectic when he found his company had sponsored IMBA. Directors gave of their time & paid their own expenses. I can match your volunteering dollar for dollar & minute for
    minute. Their are other individuals, in both organizations, whose contributions are more than yours & mine combined.

    d) IMBA was formed & continues to exist because CAAMP was not/ is not meeting the needs of a significant number of mortgage brokers in Ontario. Although I do not have first hand knowledge, but because it was formed subsequently, I can logically conclude that the ladies/gentlemen who formed the Atlantic Canada association came to the same conclusion.
    Mortgage Brokers in two diverse & significant regions of the country came up with the same
    response to a similar conclusion. A rational person would have to conclude CAAMP has
    dropped the ball at least twice, and that does not take into consideration those members of
    other provincial associations who chose not to belong to CAAMP. Just because people do not
    belong to, or see value in, CAAMP, does not make them crazy,wild-eyed radicals.


    e) When CAAMP speaks I don't know which of its four mouth's is speaking & whose interest that voice is serving. Is it a) the broker mouth b) the lender mouth c) the insurer mouth or d) all of the above mouth? I want to know when "my" organization speaks, it speaks solely in the best
    interests of the mortgage brokerage community. There will be days when those interests will not match with bankers, appraisers, insurers & the HR lady.

    f) You talk about all these fine upstanding volunteer leading mortgage brokers, yet when
    CAAMP speaks all the public ever sees/hears is Jim Murphy, someone I know has never
    been a mortgage broker & I assume has never underwritten/brokered a mortgage in his life.
    Why not let the public see/hear the real mortgage brokers you talk about, instead of the
    "hired help"?

    g) I want to be a member of a national organization solely composed of my licensed
    professional mortgage broker/agent peers from across Canada. Not bankers, not appraisers,
    not insurers, & not the HR lady who works for a lender who has never underwritten/brokered
    a mortgage in her life(& she is an AMP too!). Do I have respect for those people in other professions related to mortgaging? Of course I do & I do business with them every day. But
    they also have their own professional associations to which I can not belong. So what is wrong with us having a true national mortgage broker/agents association? Absolutely nothing!

  • Brian Matthey on 2013-10-25 1:13:58 PM

    Respectfully to those who are so steadfast in your complaints about CAAMP.Consider the following:
    1)Your comments are an insult to the many volunteers past and present who have volunteered of their time to try to evolve and improve this industry.

    2)At whose feet do you lay the blame for your concerns?

    3)If you have a concern or issue and you have addressed it in writing to CAAMP and received no action or a reply,you have a valid case for your position

    4)If you have a concern with where the money goes in CAAMP,have you asked for a copy of their income statement and balance sheet and talked to the Treasurer about your concerns?If you have done so and not received a satisfactory response,you have a valid case for your position.

    5)if you have a concern about the AMP designation,have you addressed it with the committee involved and made suggestions for change or improvement?If you have done so and received no satisfactory response,you have a valid case for your position.

    6)We all have a valid concern about mobile reps being included in CAAMP but have you addressed that to CAAMP in writing?If you have and didn't receive a satisfactory response,you have a valid case for your position.

    7)if you feel the Banks are pulling all the strings at CAAMP,have you voiced your concerns to the mortgage broker director representatives or in fact,the mortgage broker chair?Surely they may give you a better understanding than pure speculation.

    8)If you have been dissatisfied with a conference or any event sponsored by CAAMP have you addressed your concerns and made suggestions for improvement?If you have and you have been ignored,you have a valid case for your position.

    9)Do you really think that a mortgage broker driven organization will have more clout at the government relations level than we currently have?Have you ever picked up the phone to ask Darryl about his past experience as the chair and a mortgage broker and his experience or opinion at the government meetings?

    9)@John-if the 2011 Atlantic conference was such a bust,did you voice your concerns to CAAMP?Why didn't you step in a volunteer to organize the next one?Did you offer suggestions for improvement?If you did the above and received no response you have a valid case for your position

    10)To those of you who have been to CAAMP conferences and not been satisfied,what did you do?Did you seek out a CAAMP director or the chair or somebody within CAAMP to voice your concerns and make suggestions for improvement?Did you even complete the survey?

    It is very easy to blame everybody else for our problems.It is far harder to step in and be part of the solution or at least get invloved.The only way you will begin to realize this is when you decide to take the course you envision as a broker driven association,face those that want somebody else to do all the work and face the same apathy from those who will criticize your efforts with no solution or involvement.

  • Brian Matthey on 2013-10-25 1:50:49 PM

    Mr O' Gorman

    My apologies for dropping the "O".Love the history lesson.Irrespective of your source for definition,Google or Oxford,the reference to "Toadies" is below what I would expect of somebody who has been part of an element of change through the IMBA and has volunteered a significant amount of time in doing so.
    I would expect that in your involvement you have had your share of experience with apathy and criticism without solution.
    I do not consider those that are not in CAAMP as radicals, but I do take issue with those that would criticize without concrete input,involvement or even an effort to understand the issues.I would take the same stand to anyone who would criticize the IMBA on speculation or innuendo.
    You would have to ask those in Atlantic Canada why they joined their new Association.I would assume it was for the same reason that IMBA and MBABC exists as provincial representation for provincial issues that affect them there and not as an affront to CAAMP.
    Great issues in (e) and (f)To whom at CAAMP did you voice these concerns and what was their response?
    I am a member of CAAMP and IMBA as I see value in both organizations.A huge amount of work has gone into the development of each organization to throw that all away without an effort to be part of a solution to those things that people feel need to be addressed.

  • Ron Butler on 2013-10-25 2:10:15 PM

    Brian, your points are well made but with all due respect there has been ongoing unrest with CAAMP from some quarters that deserves it's voice.

    There are many factual things that mortgage brokers and agents think about:

    Why are there so few actual day to day mortgage brokers in the Hall of Fame? You made it this year and well deserved at that; but there have been many years that network, lender, tech or insurers were the only inductees. How can it be that an organization that is 70% brokers have only 16% of the Hall inductees be active brokers?

    Until the last two years there has been a long parade of non-broker Presidents, even today the majority of the Board are non-brokers, I don't count network execs as brokers because they aren't.

    You can make the point that anyone can be nominated and you'd be right, but what individual broker stands a chance against a network exec or a lender who has a captive audience of voters.

    The reality is if CAAMP membership is 70% active brokers the by-laws should be changed so that the Board must be 70% active brokers.

    I am on a CAAMP Committee and I do talk to Mr. Murphy and he is happy to talk to me. He does not avoid tough questions and he has actually followed up on some changes. There is no question that some good work is being done by CAAMP on Brokers behalf but there is clearly a disconnect in some quarters and it is real. There is clearly some dissatisfaction with some programs and policies and not everyone has the time or feels comfortable calling or running for office or pressing the case with Directors.

    When brokers talk about the importance of a pure broker association I totally understand where that desire comes from. Do I think it will happen any time soon: I don't think so. Do I wish CAAMP were more purely broker run and driven by broker only policies: damn right I do.

    I don't think that will happen anytime soon.

  • Brian Matthey on 2013-10-25 2:35:37 PM

    Ron I agree with you on many points.When CIMBL was first formed there was the 800 lb Gorilla in the room that was deemed to be lender involvement.The reality of that was that the association would not have got off the ground without them.

    The other reality is that most people couldn't afford to volunteer all the time that was needed and sacrifice their income in the process or their responsibility in managing and growing their own business.

    A lot of the heavy lifting was done by lenders and affiliates and the same is true today .

    Sure there is a disconnect in some areas.What organization doesn't have them and is perfect?

    I understand the desire for a broker driven association but those that tout it have no idea of the work involved in creating one and will it be any better?Why not put that effort into improving what we have?Let the voice be for change and improvement and let those with a voice step up to the table to effect it.

    Those that criticize CAAMP without involvement are,in my opinion,discounting what you and others are doing in working within the system for change.
    I appreciate your opinions.

  • M. Robertson on 2013-10-25 2:52:16 PM

    @ Brian Matthey and others...

    I think that too many people here are forgetting something. Two years ago CAAMP was struggling for memberships and acceptance of the AMP designation. Their solution? Hold a meeting with the heads of every major brand in Canada. During that meeting CAAMP requested a few key things from these franchise organizations. (1) Make membership in CAAMP mandatory for their entire networks, who represent 80% of the brokerage community. (2) Collect CAAMP dues and receive a credit that could be used to attend events etc. For those who do not remember there are more than one articles in the archives here about it.

    There was only ONE brand at the time that said no to this plan, and the response was (and I quote) “At least, one broker network has decided not to take up the CAAMP offer, although remains very supportive of an organization that continues to successfully lobby regulators and government on behalf of its members and the industry, as a whole. “We are a franchise organization,” Paul Therien, director of business development for Centum Financial Group, told MortgageBrokerNews.ca. “Our primary role is to provide systems and tools to our members, our franchisees. It really is not our role as an independent for-profit franchisor to mandate membership in any association or to collect for that association.”

    Two weeks later DLC, after pressure from their network, came out and said that they also rejected to offer, Gary Mauris said: “We turned down the CAAMP incentive immediately after receiving the letter from CAAMP and have no interest in collecting association fees for them,” He said. “Also we do not make CAAMP membership mandatory, but leave that decision up to our franchise owners.” However, I have heard directly from MANY DLC franchise owners, and many have made comments through this site, that it is mandatory to belong to CAAMP for them. They are not the only brand.

    Centum still appears to be the only brand that has never backed down, they listen to their network (all 3000 of them) – membership is voluntary, although they support national associations. It is interesting to note that since that article came out, Centum has been pretty much black balled by CAAMP. I have not seen Mr. Therien, who is now VP of Operations, invited to speak at or attend any CAAMP events – he is however quite sought after by others to sit on boards and speak.

    CAAMP is set up in such a way that if a franchise is a member then ALL agents must be a member. If one person in a office wishes to belong to CAAMP, ALL people must sign up. There is no exception to these rules. If you remove mandatory membership requirements the actual number of members that CAAMP has would easily be cut in half; most likely 2/3.

    Does CAAMP do some lobbying? Yes they do, but they cannot lobby solely on behalf of brokers because their membership is not exclusive to brokers. They are a mortgage industry association, they are NOT a mortgage BROKER association and there is a distinct difference between the two. You cannot represent multiple interests effectively as an association, that has been proven time and again in other industries around the world for hundreds of years.

    More and more people are dissatisfied with the cost to belong to CAAMP and the lack of perceived value that the membership brings to them. It is expensive to belong, you pay to attend all CAAMP events, the AMP designation is not being marketed the way it was promised when it launched. CAAMP has done some lobbying, but according to everything I can find – they have been only moderately successful. They claim that they got the HST waived on broker fees, that is great… for Ontario – but what about the rest of the country? What have they done for brokers in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, etc? Little to nothing. They have had almost zero impact on the changes made to mortgage lending rules – sure they lobbied, but CREA was FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than CAAMP. Take a look at the CAAMP website, no new papers for how long.. according to the CAAMP website they have not filed a position paper since August 2008. It is almost 2014….

    Most of the training that they provide is applicable only to Ontario, licensing courses, etc. They tried to join up with MBABC – and as a result… members started jumping ship and were not happy. Other provincial associations have clearly stated that they want nothing to do with the heavy handed CAAMP. CAAMP is a NATIONAL organization, and as such has a legal obligation to equally represent all of their members. They don’t do that, and it is unlikely that they ever will if they haven’t for 20 years.

    CAAMP is not perfect and neither would a broker only association, but CAAMP doesn’t listen to its membership – they do not need too – because most are forced to belong.

    People have been screaming about this stuff for years, and for years they have been largely ignored. You cannot ignore your membership forever, eventually there will be a revolution.

  • Broker Owner on 2013-10-25 3:11:54 PM

    @ M. Robertson - you are so bang on in so many ways.

    Sorry I am not giving my name because of potential back lash… you will understand when you read.

    As a member of DLC, I can confirm that we are told we must belong to CAAMP.

    Given the choice, I would not and nor would my agents – all 40+ of them. We rarely if ever attend CAAMP events because of the additional cost and I can get the exact same training far cheaper from other sources.

    That and the training that DLC provides me is excellent and easily delivers what CAAMP does. I am pretty sure that most of the other brands are on par with training too, I have seen most of them.

    I have been to a couple of CAAMP’s regional conferences and they are not well attended, and I will never go to one again. My E&O is way cheaper than what they offer. Etc. So... I question their value everytime they come up.

    I do not like being told that I must to belong to CAAMP, and when it comes time to renew… it is going to be a big factor in my decision. I am supposed to be independently owned and operated which means to me, that I get to make that decision.

    My Two cents.

  • Walid on 2013-10-25 9:35:02 PM

    After reading all the comments, I think we should debate the following in details:

    1-Provincial vs National association
    2-Funding (general fees, tech setup...).
    3-Managing (who has the experience to manage and how many do we need...)
    4-Continuous education (internally developped, outsourced, partenerd)
    5-Structure (Customer service, communications, voting)

    Should we shutdown CAAMP or modify its status to an education provider and prohibit them from doing any event or public communication.

    Feel free to add more points.

    Ideally we will need a forum to discuss this.

    How about a Google Hangout ? Or maybe a formal meeting (tough when we are scattered all over the place)

    Walid Hammami , Walid@hypotheca.ca, cell:514-266-7375

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-27 10:14:40 AM

    Any effort to right a ship which is fundamentally flawed in it’s constitution, in my opinion, is futile. A better goal, and a better use of everyone’s time and money would be to organize a national organization designed the way we all know it should be designed. We deserve nothing more and nothing less. Many successful professional associations have been sited in this dialogue. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Take a few minutes to read about the Insurance Brokers Association of Canada. Their domain name alone speaks volumes – www.findabroker.ca.

    With all due respect to those who have invested time and money to advance our profession via the CAAMP model, you need to re-evaluate where they have taken you in twenty years, and where they are going. It’s time to add some oars to the boat, and we only need broker/agent oarsmen.

    Walid, google hangout will not be able to accommodate the number of interested parties who will want to participate in this effort. There are other means on the internet that can better accommodate us. I will look into setting something up. Anyone interested in participating in the initial discussion to organize CMBA, please send me your email directly to blair@anderson.ca.

    And don't forget to contact your provincial association asking them to get involved.

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-27 5:02:14 PM

    To make life easier for me, and so that no one gets missed, please put "CMBA" in the subject line.

    Thanks,
    Blair

  • Paolo Di Petta | dipettamortgage.com on 2013-10-29 11:16:32 AM

    To whomever is getting this off the ground - give me a call, and lets get it co-ordinated.

  • John Dearin on 2013-10-29 1:12:15 PM

    I am a DLC franchisor and I have never been asked or pressured to join or stay a member of CAAMP or any other organization. I have posted publically here of my intent to leave? Maybe someone from DLC needs to let me know that I HAVE to be a member? I don't see anything in my franchise agreement, perhaps BROKER OWNER might direct me to it. jdearin@dominionlending.ca

  • Jill Leizert on 2013-10-29 4:10:22 PM

    Excellent Idea: I am NOT a CAAMP member as I do not beleive that they fairly represent the growth and broker market. Please let me know if you need assistance in getting this started. Thanks!

  • Blair Anderson on 2013-10-29 6:20:23 PM

    Thanks for your support Jill. Please send your email directly to me at blair@anderson.ca, and I will include you in the upcoming conference call.

    Please put CMBA in the subject line.

Broker news forum is the place for positive industry interaction and welcomes your professional and informed opinion.

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